Comments on: Awakening of Great Beings, Part 2 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/ Commentaries on Meditation, Zen, Buddhism, and Mindfulness Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:43:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Wade http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12024 Wade Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:45:37 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12024 @Cedric/Marcus, Marcus has nailed what I'm trying to say, both are the same... Now where to? :) @Cedric, Keep on experiencing perhaps is more in line with what I meant. Great pick up, thank you for catching me :) Gassho, Wade @Cedric/Marcus, Marcus has nailed what I’m trying to say, both are the same… Now where to? :)

@Cedric, Keep on experiencing perhaps is more in line with what I meant. Great pick up, thank you for catching me :)

Gassho,

Wade

]]> By: Marcus http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12023 Marcus Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:40:16 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12023 Really, "where is the crowd?" and "where is the no-crowd?" (or any variant of) can be used simultaneously. There will always be crowd and no-crowd existing simultaneously, so the patterns of thought should consider both questions simultaneously as well. Really, “where is the crowd?” and “where is the no-crowd?” (or any variant of) can be used simultaneously. There will always be crowd and no-crowd existing simultaneously, so the patterns of thought should consider both questions simultaneously as well.

]]> By: Cedric http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12014 Cedric Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:38:48 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12014 Marcus, that's a good word, "distant". That's where I think our minds are most of the time. Even when we're focused or concentrating, the mind is distant in that it is beyond the observer and so we fail to see what it is we are. Wade, what I am suggesting is that it is the question "where is the crowd?" that is useful. Equally useful is the question "where is the no-crowd?". Either question can be asked in either situation, interchangeably, when there is crowd or when there is no-crowd. And you can substitute most any word for crowd. The usefulness is that the question usually snaps my mind back, and it stops being distant. "Keep on thinking...", Wade that's funny, exactly what I would like to stop doing :) Marcus, that’s a good word, “distant”. That’s where I think our minds are most of the time. Even when we’re focused or concentrating, the mind is distant in that it is beyond the observer and so we fail to see what it is we are.

Wade, what I am suggesting is that it is the question “where is the crowd?” that is useful. Equally useful is the question “where is the no-crowd?”. Either question can be asked in either situation, interchangeably, when there is crowd or when there is no-crowd. And you can substitute most any word for crowd. The usefulness is that the question usually snaps my mind back, and it stops being distant.

“Keep on thinking…”, Wade that’s funny, exactly what I would like to stop doing :)

]]> By: Marcus http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12013 Marcus Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:31:14 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12013 Wade: My example of being lost in thought was just to illustrate the point of not being there mentally whilst being there physically. Of course, in our application, you would physically be there, but your mind would be present. Just distant, I guess for lack of a better term. Cedric: Crowds/city noise having the same purpose as the stick is the meaning I'm going for. Wade: My example of being lost in thought was just to illustrate the point of not being there mentally whilst being there physically. Of course, in our application, you would physically be there, but your mind would be present. Just distant, I guess for lack of a better term.

Cedric: Crowds/city noise having the same purpose as the stick is the meaning I’m going for.

]]> By: Wade http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12012 Wade Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:54:57 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12012 Hi Cedric, If you do not see the crowd, is there not, no crowd? :) Interested in your reply here..... Ah, I was just informing, as I've heard many call it a tool of punishment. Your right about it's purpose, the same as a bell like you mentioned earlier. And yes, crowds can be used for practice. I think the key to this post is around attachment, rather than utilization of crowds. It looks at requiring crowds to practice with, vs using them if they are about..... Again, very interesting, that is too how I have felt, but I keep trying to come back to "All human affairs are the jewels of enlightenment" by Fuji Kozan. Which essentially is the underlying reality, that of non-distinction..... Keep on thinking, keep on writing, I'm really enjoying our discussions. May we exist in muddy water with purity like a lotus, thus we bow to Buddha. Wade Hi Cedric,

If you do not see the crowd, is there not, no crowd? :) Interested in your reply here…..

Ah, I was just informing, as I’ve heard many call it a tool of punishment. Your right about it’s purpose, the same as a bell like you mentioned earlier. And yes, crowds can be used for practice. I think the key to this post is around attachment, rather than utilization of crowds. It looks at requiring crowds to practice with, vs using them if they are about…..

Again, very interesting, that is too how I have felt, but I keep trying to come back to “All human affairs are the jewels of enlightenment” by Fuji Kozan. Which essentially is the underlying reality, that of non-distinction…..

Keep on thinking, keep on writing, I’m really enjoying our discussions.

May we exist in muddy water with purity like a lotus, thus we bow to Buddha.

Wade

]]> By: Cedric http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12006 Cedric Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:43:06 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12006 Hi Wade, I didn't say "there is no crowd", I asked the question "where is the crowd?" There's a difference, I think. As you say the statement "there is no crowd" is not very useful but the question... Also I didn't imply the kyosaku was a punishment, simply that I thought of it as a sensory means of bringing one back to awareness when the mind wanders. Crowds and city noise could have the same purpose could they not? I have often thought that the opportunities for self-understanding or self-knowledge are more prevalent when "shit happens" then when "all is good with the world". But of course I make no claims to knowing anything. These are just thoughts :) Thanks. Hi Wade, I didn’t say “there is no crowd”, I asked the question “where is the crowd?” There’s a difference, I think. As you say the statement “there is no crowd” is not very useful but the question…
Also I didn’t imply the kyosaku was a punishment, simply that I thought of it as a sensory means of bringing one back to awareness when the mind wanders. Crowds and city noise could have the same purpose could they not?
I have often thought that the opportunities for self-understanding or self-knowledge are more prevalent when “shit happens” then when “all is good with the world”. But of course I make no claims to knowing anything. These are just thoughts :)
Thanks.

]]> By: Wade http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12001 Wade Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:22:24 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-12001 If awakening is the realisation that there is no one here to awaken then where is this crowd? And how is depriving yourself of sensory perception (by staying “alone in a quiet place”) going to help? Don’t monks, even while meditating, get hit with sticks or have gongs clanged? After all is it not the case that what we perceive is not real but the act of perceiving is? Awareness of one’s mind must be key to understanding Reality and such awareness can only come, initially, through observation (at least until the observed and the observer are one). It would seem to me much easier to observe something active than something still. In any case, don’t get stuck on it, that’s attachment ;) and don’t judge one situation (crowds and noise) to be any better or worse than another (solitude and silence). Perhaps all that is meant from this line is “If you need a break, go chill and recharge your batteries” :) Don’t take any of this as advice, ‘cause all I know for sure is that I know nought (and even that I am not sure). @Cedric, 'Where is the crowd', as you say, this must be looked at in context of all the teachings. From what I notice in our discussions, you seem to speak of the Absolute Realm, which is reality, but we connect to it from a Relative World. There ARE crowds, to deny the existence of crowds is almost the same delusion as saying there is nothing in them to fear. Check out http://themiddleway.net/2007/11/14/absolute-relative-and-enlightenment/, especially the bit down the bottom. FYI the stick, kyosaku, is called The Stick of Compassion, it's not a form of punishment, it's a loving encouragement, and a great release of tension :) The lack of attachment to crowds or solitude is what I got out of this one, that, it's fine to be anywhere, but don't get bogged down by it. @Marcus, Yes, you can be 'not present', but that's not very mindful, that's delusion and/or fantasy living. It's not living in the moment or reality. Meditating in a busy park, I'd try be as present as possible, starting with the breath, coming back to it, and then moving gently and easily to whatever becomes the most dominant aspect of my environment. Not shutting it out, but including it, no distinctions between self and other, just. May all beings be happy, may all beings have peace. Gassho, Wade If awakening is the realisation that there is no one here to awaken then where is this crowd? And how is depriving yourself of sensory perception (by staying “alone in a quiet place”) going to help? Don’t monks, even while meditating, get hit with sticks or have gongs clanged? After all is it not the case that what we perceive is not real but the act of perceiving is? Awareness of one’s mind must be key to understanding Reality and such awareness can only come, initially, through observation (at least until the observed and the observer are one). It would seem to me much easier to observe something active than something still.
In any case, don’t get stuck on it, that’s attachment ;) and don’t judge one situation (crowds and noise) to be any better or worse than another (solitude and silence).
Perhaps all that is meant from this line is “If you need a break, go chill and recharge your batteries” :)

Don’t take any of this as advice, ‘cause all I know for sure is that I know nought (and even that I am not sure).

@Cedric, ‘Where is the crowd’, as you say, this must be looked at in context of all the teachings. From what I notice in our discussions, you seem to speak of the Absolute Realm, which is reality, but we connect to it from a Relative World. There ARE crowds, to deny the existence of crowds is almost the same delusion as saying there is nothing in them to fear. Check out http://themiddleway.net/2007/11/14/absolute-relative-and-enlightenment/, especially the bit down the bottom.

FYI the stick, kyosaku, is called The Stick of Compassion, it’s not a form of punishment, it’s a loving encouragement, and a great release of tension :)

The lack of attachment to crowds or solitude is what I got out of this one, that, it’s fine to be anywhere, but don’t get bogged down by it.

@Marcus, Yes, you can be ‘not present’, but that’s not very mindful, that’s delusion and/or fantasy living. It’s not living in the moment or reality. Meditating in a busy park, I’d try be as present as possible, starting with the breath, coming back to it, and then moving gently and easily to whatever becomes the most dominant aspect of my environment. Not shutting it out, but including it, no distinctions between self and other, just.

May all beings be happy, may all beings have peace.

Gassho,

Wade

]]> By: Marcus http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-11989 Marcus Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:00:50 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-11989 Wade: Can you not be 'away' from something mentally? I'm sure you've been 'off in your own little world' plenty of times. If you meditate in a busy park, do you focus on the people around you, or on your meditation (although really, you should be focused on both to be truly meditating, as such)? Of course, as Cedric says, I could just be reading into it too much. Sometimes the face value of something is all there is. Wade: Can you not be ‘away’ from something mentally? I’m sure you’ve been ‘off in your own little world’ plenty of times. If you meditate in a busy park, do you focus on the people around you, or on your meditation (although really, you should be focused on both to be truly meditating, as such)?

Of course, as Cedric says, I could just be reading into it too much. Sometimes the face value of something is all there is.

]]> By: Cedric http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-11973 Cedric Sun, 09 Dec 2007 22:38:59 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-11973 Wade, if the Buddha did indeed say this (I say if since we cannot truly know what was said but rather are left with an interpretation further interpreted by our own filters) then it should be taken in context of all teachings. If awakening is the realisation that there is no one here to awaken then where is this crowd? And how is depriving yourself of sensory perception (by staying "alone in a quiet place") going to help? Don't monks, even while meditating, get hit with sticks or have gongs clanged? After all is it not the case that what we perceive is not real but the act of perceiving is? Awareness of one's mind must be key to understanding Reality and such awareness can only come, initially, through observation (at least until the observed and the observer are one). It would seem to me much easier to observe something active than something still. In any case, don't get stuck on it, that's attachment ;) and don't judge one situation (crowds and noise) to be any better or worse than another (solitude and silence). Perhaps all that is meant from this line is "If you need a break, go chill and recharge your batteries" :) Don't take any of this as advice, 'cause all I know for sure is that I know nought (and even that I am not sure). Wade, if the Buddha did indeed say this (I say if since we cannot truly know what was said but rather are left with an interpretation further interpreted by our own filters) then it should be taken in context of all teachings. If awakening is the realisation that there is no one here to awaken then where is this crowd? And how is depriving yourself of sensory perception (by staying “alone in a quiet place”) going to help? Don’t monks, even while meditating, get hit with sticks or have gongs clanged? After all is it not the case that what we perceive is not real but the act of perceiving is? Awareness of one’s mind must be key to understanding Reality and such awareness can only come, initially, through observation (at least until the observed and the observer are one). It would seem to me much easier to observe something active than something still.
In any case, don’t get stuck on it, that’s attachment ;) and don’t judge one situation (crowds and noise) to be any better or worse than another (solitude and silence).
Perhaps all that is meant from this line is “If you need a break, go chill and recharge your batteries” :)

Don’t take any of this as advice, ‘cause all I know for sure is that I know nought (and even that I am not sure).

]]> By: Wade http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-11969 Wade Sun, 09 Dec 2007 20:15:53 +0000 http://themiddleway.net/2007/12/09/awakening-of-great-beings-part-2/#comment-11969 Hi Marcus, Awesome way of reading it! would love to see it that way, but get stuck reading this line "This is to be away from the crowds and stay alone in a quiet place." How do you read that? Look forward to your reply. Peace, Wade Hi Marcus,

Awesome way of reading it! would love to see it that way, but get stuck reading this line “This is to be away from the crowds and stay alone in a quiet place.”

How do you read that? Look forward to your reply.

Peace,
Wade

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